볼튼, "북한이 거짓말을 많이 하여 증거를 보기 전엔 믿을 수 없다."|
오늘 새벽에 방송된 폭스 뉴스의 백악관 안보 보좌관 존 볼튼 인터뷰 北核 부분 녹취록 全文이다.
볼튼은 김정은이 핵을 포기하겠다는 전략적 결정을 내렸는지는 확인해 봐야 한다면서 對北제재를 중도에서 해제하면 비핵화의 수단이 없어진다고 했다. 그는 리비아 식의 해결 방안을 제시하였다. 즉 먼저 비핵화하고 나중에 보상한다는 것이다. 한반도 비핵화 선언은 남북한 사이에 한 것이므로 미국은 북한의 비핵화에 따른 행동 의무가 없다고도 하였다.
그는 과거에 북한이 많은 거짓말을 하였음을 상기시키면서 문재인-김정은 공동성명을 액면대로 믿을 수 없다고도 하였다. 트럼프 대통령은 서둘고 있지만 보좌진은 신중하다는 뉘앙스의 이야기도 했다.
그는 장소는 문제가 될 것이 없지만 김정은이 핵무기 사업 전체를 폐기한다는 전략적 결단을 내려야 한다고 강조하였다. 리비아 식과 차이점은 리비아는 소규모였다는 점이다.
핵문제 이외에도 화학 생물학 무기, 인질로 잡힌 미국인, 그리고 일본인 납치자 문제도 이야기하여야 한다고 덧붙였다. 그는 1992년에 발표된 한반도 비핵화 선언을 대화의 출발점으로 삼아야 한다고 했다. 이 선언에서 북한은 플루토늄, 우라늄 등 모든 방식의 핵개발을 포기하기로 약속하였다는 것이다. 폭스 뉴스 진행자가 '對北 경제 제재를 해제하기 전에 모든 핵프로그램을 포기하여야 하느냐'고 물은 데 대하여는 '그렇다'고 했다. 그는 트럼프-김정은 회담에서 북한정권이 그런 방향의 전략적 결정을 내린 증거를 확인해야 한다고 했다.
볼튼 보좌관은 북한을 핵무장국으로 인정하고 시설의 일부를 유지하도록 하는 것이 가능한가라는 질문엔 '불가능하다'면서 북한이 여러 번 거짓말을 하였으므로 트럼프 정부의 그 누구도 환상을 갖고 있지 않다고 했다.
질문자가 '북한이 말하는 한반도 비핵화에는 핵무기 탑재 비행기나 선박의 접근을 하지 않는다는 전제 조건이 있다는 이야기가 있다'고 하니 볼튼은 이렇게 이야기하였다.
'우리는 그런 약속을 한 적이 없다. 나는 판문점 선언을 그들이 말한 바 선행한 남북한 약속의 구조 안에서 이해하려고 한다. 1992년 선언은 남북한에 관련된 것이지 미국과는 관련이 없다. 미국을 제약하는 것이 아니다.'
볼튼은 '협상이 불발될 가능성도 있다. 김정은을 만나 봐야 알 것이다. 말로는 누구도 움직일 수 없다.'고 거듭 강조하였다.
미국이 침략하지 않겠다고 약속하면 핵을 포기하겠다고 김정은이 말하였다는 한국인들의 이야기에 대하여 어떻게 생각하느냐는 질문에 볼튼은 이렇게 말하였다.
'그런 이야기를 전에도 들은 적이 있다. 그래서 구체적 증거를 확인하기 전까지는 그런 修辭를 의심해야 한다는 것이다.'
그런 말장난에 넘어가지 않겠다는 뜻이다. 대체로 판문점 선언이나 한국이 전해주는 김정은의 말을 불신하는 뉘앙스였다. 폼페이오 국무장관이 김정은을 만나 깊은 대화를 나눴으므로 한국이 알려주는 이야기를 검증할 수 있는 기초 자료를 갖고 있을 것이다.
노무현 정권 때 미국 측 6자 회담 대표는 한국 측을 의심하여 정보 제공에 신중하였던 적이 있다.
Joining us now, John Bolton in his first Sunday show interview as the president's national security advisor. Ambassador, welcome back to 'Fox News Sunday.'
JOHN BOLTON, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Glad to be here.
WALLACE: Let's start with the Trump-Kim summit. Is it going to happen, when, and where?
BOLTON: Well, I think it is going to happen. The dates and the places are still under discussion. I think the president is eager to do it as soon as possible, but we still need to work out the precise parameters.
WALLACE: Well, you say he's going to do it as soon as possible. Is the U.S. side ready to sit down and talk?
BOLTON: We will be when we do sit down. I think it's something that the president has thought a good deal about already and I think people around the world have already given him credit for establishing the preconditions for this to happen in the first place. President Moon of South Korea for example has been very clear that but for the pressure, the economic pressure, the political military pressure that President Trump has put on North Korea, we would not be where we are today.
WALLACE: Given how apparently while the meeting between Kim and the South Korean president went on Friday, what could stop a Trump-Kim summit from happening?
BOLTON: Well, we need to agree on a place and that remains an issue, but if, in fact, Kim has made a strategic decision to give up his entire nuclear weapons program, then I think deciding on the place and the date should be fairly easy.
WALLACE: OK. So, let's talk about your position, the U.S. position going in, what the U.S. wants from Kim. Will President Trump insist that Kim give up, ship out, all of his nuclear weapons, all of his nuclear fuel, all of his ballistic missiles, before the U.S. makes any concessions?
BOLTON: Yes, I think that's what denuclearization means. We have very much in mind the Libya model from 2003, 2004. There are obviously differences. The Libyan program was much smaller, but that was basically the agreement that we made.
And so, we want to test North Korea in this first meeting for evidence that they have made that strategic decision, and we have -- we have history to give us some assistance on it. And at 1992, the joint North-South denuclearization agreement had North Korea pledging to give up any aspect of nuclear weapons and to give up uranium enrichment and plutonium reprocessing. Now, we got other things to talk about as well -- ballistic missiles, chemical and biological weapons, the American hostages, the Japanese abductees.
But starting on the nuclear side with what North Korea agreed to more than a quarter of a century ago was a pretty good place to start.
WALLACE: But just to pin this down, North Korea has to give up basically it's a whole program before the U.S. begins to relieve economic sanctions?
BOLTON: Yes. I think that the maximum pressure campaign that the Trump administration has put on North Korea has, along with the political military pressure, has brought us to this point. I mentioned President Moon before. Just this past week, President Macron of France, Chancellor Merkel of Germany, Prime Minister Abe of Japan, the week before that, this morning, the Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull of Australia, have all acknowledged we are at this point because of American pressure. Relieving that pressure isn't going to make negotiation easier, it could make it harder.
WALLACE: What kind of time frame for North Korea to give up its weapons? How quickly what they have to do it? And is there any possibility that the U.S. would accept North Korea as a nuclear power and allow them to keep some of their infrastructure?
BOLTON: I don't see how that's possible. Again, the North Koreans have already agreed to this. They agreed to it in 1992 with South Korea and they have pledged similar things since then.
Now, it's also the case that they've lied about it and broken their commitments, just one reason there's nobody in the Trump administration starry-eyed about what may happen here. But by demonstrating they've made a strategic decision to give up nuclear weapons, it would be possible to move quickly. Again, the Libya case demonstrates this.
WALLACE: Well, when you say quickly, we are talking by the end of the year?
BOLTON: Well, it's a matter first finding out just how much there is to dismantle. I mean, it's not possible to go to this meeting with a set of screwdrivers and think we are going to take it apart beginning the day after the meeting. And therefore, the full, complete, total disclosure of everything related to their nuclear weapons program with full international verification, and I think following Libya, verification by American and other inspectors is -- could be very important here.
WALLACE: Now, the joint statement from the two Koreas on Friday called for -- and I want to put it up on the screen -- a nuclear-free Korean peninsula and some people have suggested the North Koreans will give up everything they've got. But in return, the U.S. would agree that we are not going to allow any nuclear-armed airplanes or nuclear-armed ships on the Korean peninsula. Is that acceptable?
BOLTON: Well, we certainly haven't made that commitment. And again, I'm looking at the Panmunjom declaration as they call it in the context of a series of earlier North-South Korean agreements. And again, looking at the 1992 joint declaration, when they said nuclear-free, they meant with respect to the two Koreas.
WALLACE: So, you don't view this as involving any kind of commitment from the U.S.?
BOLTON: I don't think it binds the United States, no.
WALLACE: After the summit on Friday, President Trump tweeted this: Korean War to end. The United States and all of its great people should be very proud of what is now taking place in Korea.
I don't have to remind you, Mr. Ambassador, that up to this point, Kim has said some stuff, but he has given up precisely nothing. Any concern that President Trump is getting carried away?
BOLTON: Not at all. As I said, there's nobody starry eyed around here. And we've all been called a number of things, naive is not usually one of them. I think the president sees the is a potential here for a historic agreement -- a breakthrough that nobody could have imagined even a few months ago. That potential is there.
But as he says repeatedly, the potential for no deal at all is also there. And we're not going to know until we actually have the meeting and see what Kim Jong-un is prepared to do. It certainly the case that the mere words aren't going to sway anybody.
WALLACE: Now, it certainly the case that you have never had any illusions about the Kim regime. I suspect you expected me to do what I'm about to do. Here are some of your greatest hits.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BOLTON: I think the only diplomatic option left is to end the regime in North Korea by effectively having the South take it over.
Here's an all-purpose insult that you can use, I'll apply it to the North Koreans. Question: how do you know when the North Korean regime is lying? Answer: when their lips are moving.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: Now, I've got to tell folks that when we were playing those, Ambassador Bolton had a smile on your face. Who should we believe, that John Bolton or this one?
BOLTON: Well, you know, I'll give you the same answer I gave to Martha MacCallum the day the president tweeted my nomination when I didn't even know I had been relieved of my duties at Fox News. You know, I have said and written a lot of things over the years. I stand by every one of them.
But I was a freelancer back then. I had the luxury of voicing my own opinion. That's not my job now. I'm simply an advisor. The decision-maker here is the president and I don't think really there's anything to be served by going back to those golden oldies and comparing them to what the president's position is now.
My advice to him, you know, I give in private. He makes the decisions. That's how it works.
WALLACE: Now, Kim told the South Koreans Friday that South Koreans are now saying is that he would give all his weapons up if the U.S. promises not to invade. Is that the kind of a guarantee that we would be willing to make?
BOLTON: Look, this is part of a discussion that remains to be had. We've heard similar things from North Korea before. That's why I think that while we should be optimistic in pursuing the opportunity, we should be skeptical of rhetoric until we see some concrete evidence.
WALLACE: Well, I'm not going to pull one of your old bytes now, I'm going to pull one of President Trump's from this week. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Kim Jong-un was -- he really has been very open and I think very honorable from everything we're seeing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: Kim Jong-un, open and honorable?
BOLTON: I think the president is focused on doing everything he can to make this meeting a success. It's somewhat different than what he said before but I think he's saying, look, if you are going to come with a real strategic determination to give up nuclear weapons, we're going to have a very serious conversation.